Atheists give to the poor.  Godly people give to the poor.  So this is not criteria you can use. 

Atheists are humane to animals.  Godly people are humane to animals.  Again, this is not criteria. 

Being fair to your fellow man is done by both Atheists and Christians.  Again, this is not something you can use to judge whether atheistic or not. 

Not going to church doesn't have bearing either really.  Atheists don't go to church because they don't believe in God.  Some Christians don't attend church for various reasons but they do believe in God still.   So it's not about church attendance either. 

Where the rubber meets the road is what they do with God.  An Atheist doesn't believe in God but a Christian or one who believes in God lives their life according to that belief. 

So being an atheist really is a response to how they believe in God and what they do with that belief. 

It sounds like you may be on the fence tho torn between the teachings of Dawkins and knowing in your gut there really is a God out there.  Dawkins writings and belief system will lead one away from God not towards him. 

 

 

 

I share your sentiments adnauseam- while I believe in God, (or the Gods, however you want to quantify it) I don't believe in the God being pushed by the church of today.

I don't believe in a God who values our obedience and blind faith above all else (I kinda think the creator of the universe would want his creations to question things in depth)

I don't believe in a God who is so petty to damn most of his creations to an eternity of suffering for not partaking in the 'right' faith when there are thousands out there

I don't believe in a God who would decide to favor one group of humans over another, whether it be nation state or ethnic (the whole God's on our side! argument)

I definitely don't believe in a God that interferes in mysterious ways to test our faith. If we get into a car accident or something bad happens, quite often we comfort ourselves by saying that God intentionally allowed it to happen in order to test us. Likewise if something good happens that is God's way of rewarding us, or bestowing a 'blessing' on us. This leads, eventually, to pastors who go bat-shit crazy and end up casting demons out of possessed engine blocks.

Heh, so does mine.



Not necessarily. While I agree he does sound a little "vindictive" (for lack of a better word) sounding at times overall he inspires in me a huge sense of awe and wonder about the natural world.

Belief in a "God" is what makes one be a theist/atheist, and if you believe in a god, you are not an atheist.

KFC, I cannot agree with you at all: You're saying I must sit down and make things right with GOd before I can become a Christian. Let me answer your points one by one:

Firstly, criteria doesn't count. You are either good or bad. You say atheists give to the poor. They must be good people in God's eyes but you are not happy with them. They protect.

Then you say atheists are humane to animals, How do you back that up? People who are humane to animals are good people --they live in God's shadow. They protect .

And then you say Atheists don't go to church. Is that a big deal if an atheist lives a moral life?

And then I go so far as to say (and this was the whole point), that many who are regarded as atheists are just thought that way because they don't conform to your rules.

Let's rub out the word atheist because it is misunderstood and say (and this was another point I tried to hammer through), that there are many good people on this earth who do good deeds. They don't sit in a pew (Is that what you'ld like) and donnt worship a God, or Jesus openly, but they still live honest charitable lives. Must they go to church or read the bible to satisfy all the criteria of being a Christian?

I am in my sixties and live a good life but I cannot say I am pure, angelic or even church -bound. BUT, that is not necessary for someone who helps others.

And that's where you got it wrong.

It doesn't matter if I'm happy with them at all. It's not my opinion that counts but God's. There were many nice good people who sadly walked away from Christ. They were good on their own opinion but rejected his goodness which is the only goodness that counts in God's eyes.

Remember I'm coming from a biblical background and it's written all thru scripture that we can't ever be good enough in God's eyes to earn eternal life. What we think is good is tainted with sin even so. God says even our righteousness is as filthy rags to a holy God.



Are you familiar with the story of the rich young ruler? He said he kept all the commands of God. He felt he was a good person. He looked good and probably was thought to be a good person. Jesus saw right thru him and asked him to sell all he had to give to the poor. Sadly, he walked away because he had much possessions. According the world's eyes and his own, he was a pretty good fellow. But not in God's eyes he wasn't.



So you're saying you can get to heaven on your own good works? Well welcome to 97% of the world's religions. They all say the same. It's called good works theology. If that's what you chose to believe, fine. ....but it's not a biblical concept and that's where I'm coming from.

To be a Christian one must follow Christ. That's it. Believe in Him and then follow him. Not too hard. It means turning from the world's desires and doing the will of God. It involves self-sacrifice and comittment to God and your fellow man.



I am in my 40's and have lived a good life as well. I cannot say I am pure, angelic or even church-bound either.......but I know...it's not my way....it's God's way.

It's not helping others that secures us eternal life with God. It's a relationship with God first. When we have our vertical relationship in alignment, then the horizontel follows.

I like to ask people...."would you let just anyone into your home?" Probably not right? It's the same with God. He's only going to allow those in whom he knows personally. In the last days, Jesus said, many will say...."Lord Lord, haven't we done all these things in your name?" and he's going to say to them...."Go away, I never knew you."

It's his house. It's his rules. Good works is not the way and it's never been the way. It's not about what WE have done, but all about what HE HAS DONE for us.



and that's where I've got it right....biblically speaking of course.

Points taken KFC. But the criteria we have been speaking about are about entering the KIngdom of heaven. Will you be there before me? Will I be there at all as, a realist, I know that heaven exists on Earth and I've told you before it does not exist in the sky. The way we live our lives now is a "State". A state of hell on Earth or peace and happiness. And it all happens here on Earth---it cannot happen anywhere else. I look forward to debating further.

I just look at David, a man after God's own heart, a man who not only committed adultery, but murder as well. Was he a good man? No, he broke the law of God. Just like everyone else. So there you go - works theology is broken, dead theology that just wants to keep everyone in line.

If you don't believe in God, you're an atheist. If you believe in God, you're a theist. If you believe you are a sinner and that Jesus died for those sins so that you could have eternal life with God, then you're a Christian. Only Christians go to heaven. That's not trying to shut you out, by the way. If it was a works-based system, we'd ALL be shut out. But Christ gives us ALL a way back in.

YOU KNOW that heaven exists on Earth? How do you know this?



ok I can agree to this with a twist sorta. I believe, biblically speaking of course, that this world is the only heaven unbelievers will ever know and this earth is the only hell believers will ever know.



It depends on your definition of "it." I believe if the "it" is a decision we have to make then yes. The decision we make, heaven or hell, is determined here on earth before we die. No choice is a choice.

If you're saying, and I gather you are, that this is "it," there is no afterlife, you'd better be sure before you take your last breath.

Our consequences are results of the choices we make here on earth.

Sorry, been on Summer holiday. KFC, if you know there is an afterlife, can you explain it to me? If there is any logic in this World there is no afterlife except what remains in peoples' minds. There cannot be an afterlife because we are mammals and when we die we go to dust. Our spirits remain in the lives of others. Good people tend to be mourned more than those who have had little effect on our planet. And PLEASE don't talk about a heaven. Prove it is there.

How do you know this? Where are you getting this from? My spirit was once somebody elses? Your spirit was another at one time? That's easier to believe than the fact that we are unique and created by a God who loves us?

If you're looking for me to "prove" heaven to you. I cannot. I absolutely believe in a heaven and a hell because of two things (the holy spirit and the Word of God) but I can't transfer that belief to you. Only the Holy Spirit can do this. Obviously the Holy Spirit has not. I can only point you in the right direction.

I can explain the afterlife to you tho.

I believe that we are put on earth to find, respond, and love God our creator. We have approximately 70 years to do so. Some more, some less. Some do, some never do.

When we die, our spirits go back to God for judgment. We will answer for what we did here on earth. Those that he Knew and had a relationship with here on earth are reunited with Him in heaven. Paul wrote that the believer is "absent from the body and present with the Lord" at death.

Those that he did not know and did not have a relationship with are placed in Hades awaiting future judgment. Their bodies are in the ground, but their spirits are in prison.

Death means separation. Physical death is a separation of the body from the spirit. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God.

There are two births and two deaths. The first birth is physical. We are born into this world as babies. The second birth is spiritual. Our spiritual souls when we are first "born again" are infantile. That's where "born again" comes from.

We grow spiritually like we grow physically. We need nourishment to grow. If we don't get the right nourishment we are stunted in our growth and may even get sickly. At first we need milk and then solid foods. Our spiritual food is the Word of God which is what nourishes us to complete adulthood. It takes time to grow both physically and spiritually.

There's a saying that goes like this....."born once, die twice (physically and spiritually). Born twice, die once (only physically).

Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit that day, started the death process right then and there. Because they rebelled against God, they were to die twice which is physically and spiritually. But God in his goodness provided for them by sacrificing for them and their acceptance of this brought them back to him spiritually.

In the same way, God has provided us a way in the sacrificing of his son. We can either accept it or reject it. To reject it means to die spiritually one day. To accept his sacrifice on our behalf means eternal life to all those that believe. We will never die. It was the only way of provision for us since God will not allow sin into heaven.

Jesus came to show us the way out. That was the whole purpose to show us and make provision for our sin. All we have to do is belive and accept what he did for us. It's not hard. Even a child gets it.

Jesus said himself..."you must be born again." That's the only way into heaven. And only the Holy Spirit can do this. We can't will it, or make it happen. It's all from God.

I had nothing to do with my first birth (physical) and I had nothing to do with my second birth (spiritual). It was all God.

Adnauseam,

Your article has certainly stirred up an interesting discussion. Mention atheism and religion in the same sentence and the debate is on.

As has already been said...most everyone defines an atheist as a person who believes there is no God.

So, your saying that you don't attend church but speak to God privately seems to indicate that at least in some way, you believe in God, but only you would know.

This seems to get to the heart of your article.

You write:

As KFC has already pointed out, Atheists give to the poor....are humane to animals ...and are fair to their fellow man.  But check the reasons WHY Atheists do these and you'll find it has nothing to do with belief and love of God and putting that love into practice.  

Rhetorically speaking,

WHY do you give to the poor...WHY are you kind to animals and people....WHY are you fair and do things for others?

Do you do these for your own sense of self and well-being, self accomplishment or to look good in the eyes of others? Or becasue you believe in God and love Him and realize you are subject to Him and sincerely want to follow His commands to love your neighbor?

 

  

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Being Atheist has nothing to do with how nice you are...it's a lack of belief in a god/gods.

Maybe you consider yourself Agnostic?  Not necessarily a believer, but open to the possibility?

It really sounds like you are a spiritual person, though, and not Atheist or Agnostic.

Argh.  How aggravating.

Emotions and feelings are a trait of being human, and are NOT linked to belief or nonbelief in God.

As an Atheist, I can assert that I empathize with animals and people, and those feelings have nothing to do with devotion to God.  i also try to be as good a person as I can, for the benefit of my fellow humans, because we all deserve happy lives, and cooperation is the basis for society.

I resent people who work hard to 'get into heaven', which is both a wasted and a greedy thought.  Especially those that knock on my door an 10 in the morning to tell me that there's only so many seats in heaven to take. 

Adnauseam posts:

The idea that death ends all is not the result of thought. 

Think about the lives of Mother Theresa and Adolf Hitler. If there is no God, one has no better a fate after death than the other? This is where justice comes in. Justice demands that there be a God. The very sense of justice among men resulting in our law and courts supposes a Just God. We didn't give ourselves our sense of justice. It comes from our Maker and no one can give us what one doesn't possess himself in the first place.

Yet, we all know that justice cannot always be done by men in this world and here the good sometimes suffer and the wicked or evil people prosper. And even though human justice does not always succeed in balancing the scales, they will be balanced some day by a Just God who must certainly exists.